[PS] 12Jan2004: I Just created [The Tcl'ers Wiki.] (note the . in the title). inspired by a discussion on the chat with stevel, colin, suchenwi, miguel... In my opinion, the current front page is totally overloaded with links and poorly structured. We need something more concise, something that represents the simplicity and power of Tcl. Something that sells. I have started by taking what was on the front page and stuffing it, mostly unaltered in sub pages. And I started the page with a 'strong' statement on what Tcl is. And I picked a quote from ESR (maybe slightly out of context, but hey, this is a PR drive.) In true wiki style, I hope that everyone will contribute and help make the first sub pages better. ---- ''Great initiative - we could turn that page and its first sublevel into a static HTML page with tables to get a compact format. Once the contents is ready, that is. -[jcw]'' ---- Tables would be much better than the wiki format for presenting a table of contents, yes. -[PS] ---- Three more needed links on the new front page: * News * Documentation * Downloads I'd expect these links to link to Wiki pages that explain where to find each of these things. Add these, and you get one-stop shopping: newcomers to Tcl can find everything they need on the front page. --[WHD] [ulis] Please, add an ''How to'' for the search engine: I never found it. ---- [jcw] - Just to keep the juices flowing, I made a first mock-up at [http://mini.net/wikitry1.html]. No good, this needs a '''LOT''' more work to become useful: * what table structure? (sidebars, whatever, as long as it's functional, not eye-candy) * the current lists probably still contain too much prose to really be usable as quick-glance lists * it'd be good to keep this in sync with a set of real wiki pages, for those who don't want such fancy browsing I'll update the mock-up (with real links at some point) once these issues become clearer. Different trials is ok too - just let me know what sort of overall layout you'd like to see... ---- [stevel] - Thanks JC - nice work. Some thoughts and changes * I suggest we prune the page to something like Pascal started at [The Tcl'ers Wiki.] - perhaps making the "Starting points" a side bar? This will keep the page short and to the point (i.e. aimed at first time visitors), but still provide links to other useful information. * we need to highlight ESR's comment some how - perhaps using a box similar to what JCW has done to hold the monthly highlights on his home page (http://www.equi4.com - look towards the lower right). * I've updated the sample page to include a "Highlights" section. The idea is not only to outline the highlights, but also to counteract some of the FUD being peddled about Tcl. I suggest this stays on the main page but each is kept relatively short . * While at it, I added links as per Will's suggestion above * I suggest we get rid of the big "wiki.tcl.tk" graphic from the top. Even though this is the wiki starting page, it would be better to emphasise Tcl itself ---- [stevel] - I've changed the "tag line" a little, to make it easier to read and more "punchy". One thing I'm not sure about - I'm not comfortable with the word "interesting" (as in "has all the features needed to rapidly create '''interesting''' programs in almost any field of application") given that we want to project Tcl as a serious alternative. I've changed it to "serious", but I'm not happy about that either. Can anyone suggest an alternative - sophisticated? professional? Or perhaps just something like "has all the features needed to rapidly create programs (both large and small) in almost any field of application" ---- ''[escargo] 12 Jan 2004'' - Won't there be ''twelve'' syntax rules soon? ''yes, when 8.5 is release - [stevel]'' Also, how about "features need to rapidly create '''useful''' programs"? ''thx - good suggestion IMO - [stevel]'' ---- '''[DGP] 13 Jan 2004''' -- Uhhhh.... fellas? Just MHO, but looks to me like it's getting big again. [stevel] - Patience Glasshopper ... there's method in the apparent madness ;-) ---- [stevel] - I've made a heading that combines Tcl and "radically simple". The only reason it is worth mentioning here is the font used for "radically simple" is "Geeza Pro" - which I reckon describes most of us :-) ''The #2 mock-up is now at [http://mini.net/wikitry2.html]. To clarify: this is about creating an "index.html" page which will become the default for wiki.tcl.tk (nothing else changes, all existing wiki pages remain as is, also page 0) -[jcw]'' ---- [PS] 13Jan04 - Nice progress! I'd change the color of the side bar to a friendly gray, to make it easier for your eyes to scan the page. And locate it at the left hand side, which is where most sites keep them. And lets have less 'highlights', or maybe just less, visually, by using a smaller font. And maybe put the testimonials link right after the ESR quote. It feels out of place in the sidebar. And I reordered the sidebar slightly, putting news near the top suggests (to me) that things are 'on-the-move' and 'Documentation' is more important than a lot of other things. ---- [stevel] re Pascal's points * yes, the highlights need to be pruned - each should be just the text in bold, linking to corresponding a page in the wiki * I'm not sure about the testimonials in the ESR quote - my preference would be to leave the quote alone (for maximum impact) and put the testimonials back into the side bar * the sidebar re-ordering looks good ---- [PS] leaving the quote alone has its merits, yes. But testimonials should be rather prominent, if only so visitors are bound to read the word 'testimonials', with all the possitive vibes the word has. ''Mock-up #3 now at [http://mini.net/wikitry3.html], and #4 at [http://mini.net/wikitry4.html] -[jcw]'' ---- [SMH] 13Jan2004 strikes me as a very good "what is TCL" page, but as the front page to a wiki we should give some prominence to the fact that it's a collaberative effort to which anyone with an interest in the development of TCL applications or TCL itself can contribute. ---- [RS] wonders if the front page should describe Tcl as a combination of features (and power) of LISP, C, and Unix shells... ---- What does this wiki's community want as the purpose of the front page? Is it to tell the community what's new? Is it to attract drive-by visitors? Is it to introduce a new visitor to the wiki? Is it to introduce a new visitor to Tcl? Perhaps once a set of goals have been set, the contents of the front page becomes easier to identify. ---- [stevel] - What *I* want is a place where I can point people to give them a gentle overview of what Tcl is about. Whether that is the front page of the wiki, www.tcl.tk or somewhere else I don't really care. But at the moment Tcl has no such place. This was discussed on the chat the other night BTW - it came about because of various comments about Tcl's PR being poor. We know we have something good - we just need to communicate that more effectively. It's somewhat ironic that ESR's otherwise derogatory description contained the "radically simple" comment and led to the setting up of this page. ---- [WHD] - I agree with Steve. I tell a lot of people about Tcl ([Notebook App] has users who had never heard of Tcl before they started using it, and [Notebook App] encourages them to learn it) and there's no really good place to point them. I think both the current front page and [jcw]'s replacement at [http://mini.net/wikitry1.html] (at 13 Jan 2004, 7:45 AM PDT) are too large and too busy. ''I agree with Will, I'm leaving all mock-up's in place so y'all have something to gawk at, but that first one is (IMHO) the worst. I also agree with others who point out that the front page of this '''wiki''' need not necessarily be an advocacy page. -[jcw]'' ----- I think a gentle overview of what Tcl is about is a good idea - I don't know that the front page of this wiki is the place for it though. It should, however, be some place within one click of either the wiki or the http://www.tcl.tk/ front page though. Anyone have a good example of a gentle introduction to some other package or language that might serve as a guide? ---- [jcw] - Speaking of examples, have a look at http://www.perl.org/ ---- [WHD] - Yes, http://www.perl.org does exactly the right sort of thing. As to the comment, "I don't know that the front page of this wiki is the place for it though," I have to ask in response: if not here, then where? The Tcl equivalent to www.perl.org is supposed to be http://www.tcl.tk -- but for good or ill, www.tcl.tk doesn't seem to get a lot of maintenance. On the other hand, anybody in the Tcl community can contribute to wiki.tcl.tk, and it is, ''de facto'' the real Tcl developer community web site. ---- [Category Tcler's Wiki]