This page has been created to publish a lamentable chat discussion where three users have been offending each other. This is not a good new for Tcl chat networks. Users , and sergiol (after his nick was an after because was banned him from the IRC network) were offending each as quoted below. [14:16] New TIP: #274 [14:20] 274 makes sense [14:20] heh, suchenwi beat me to the edit [14:20] [14:20] gonna add the actual result. [14:21] Tcl doesn't return "approximate" answers. [14:21] Not in 8.5 [14:21] Now, if it had been 2.0**3**4, that would be different [14:21] Ah - so expr acos(-1) gives precise Pi ? [16:52] * hasnt got an-non-memmory-leaky browser, so would someone be so kind to summerize what tip #274 is about? [14:22] Zarutian: Changing the associativity of the exponentiation operator [14:22] dkf: why? [16:52] * dkf know his browser has memleaks, and doesn't care [14:23] Read the TIP to find out [14:23] discussion on tcl-core recently. [14:24] also - changes tcl to be like perl,ruby,python and others. [14:25] more agol-60 like in other words? [14:26] sergiol may be doing a TIP to add the logical XOR was useful too? [14:27] Tcl already has logical xor [14:28] (!$x) != (!$y) [14:28] sergiol yes but that is not self evident [14:28] sergiol "Don't make me think" - Steve Krug [14:28] [14:28] sergiol anybody has read this book on usabilty? [14:29] If the inputs are Booean (0 or 1), != is sufficient for logival xor. [14:29] logical [14:29] Boolean [14:29] sergiol suchenwi: i got you [14:30] RS: The text is good, the example is only so-so [14:31] Just one I had lying round - didn't want a too complicated, yet evident example. What would you propose? [14:34] Not sure. I'm not very alert today [16:52] * schlenk hates incompetent PHP and SQL coders that code SQL and PHP like the code C, with bitfields and lots of binary operations inside SELECTs..., and i have to understand this crap -> head nearing explosion, even debugging tcllib ASN.1 package is better... [14:35] Sympathies. [14:36] Yes, Richard, I'm willing to talk about "precise pi". I'd *hope* that Tcl gives that--well, that Tcl passes through the underlying library ... [14:36] [string length $PrecisePi] == Inf [14:36] "Precise pi" is an interesting concept [14:37] sergiol does that exist "precise pi"? [14:37] shclenk: big words that [14:37] Its just brilliant 50+ multi table queries just to get some basic document facts for a document management system, the designer of this should be shot (but is now teaching students how to write C and C++ as head of a CS lab). [14:37] Actually, it's a concept that's defined by "how many digits do you want?" [14:37] It does exist, but can't never be printed out in full [14:37] Clearly its: π [14:37] [14:38] sergiol it is the most aberrational concept on maths [14:38] Zarutian: you were interested in ASN.1 a while ago, why? [16:52] * miguel missed the pâté discussion ... "How come your goose liver pâté is so Cheap?" "Well, I trick a bit: it is 50% horse liver" "Mmhhh ... still, should be dearer. How do prepare it?" "Easy: chop one goose liver and one horse liver" [14:38] Just irrational - we have many of those, e.g. sqrt(2) is another [14:38] Ah, yes; precise pi only existed post-Unicode. [14:39] RS: Joking aside, the concept of whether it exists or not was a matter of some philosophical/mathematical discussion a few centuries ago [14:39] The next calendar should have its origin at the adoption of Unicode; we can be in year 8 now. [16:52] * dkf thinks miguel's comment reminds him of chicken-and-horse pie: 50-50, 1 chicken, 1 horse. [14:39] Yes, irrational numbers were seen by some as a kind of witchcraft [14:39] go some more centuries back, and even sqrt(2) was revolutionary ... [14:40] Folks *do* realize that most numbers are irrational, right? [14:40] Here we use liverwurst and braunschweiger interchangeably--is the latter term used in Germany too (possibly with corrected spelling)? [14:40] sergiol who's the guy that proofed the perimeter/diameter=3.14... in a circle? anybody has ever heard of him? [14:40] Most numbers are undescribable [14:40] Another fun irrational is Φ iirc. [14:40] dkf: tell the accountants that [14:40] Well, as there are Inf primes, and sqrt(x) is irrational for prime ix, we have Inf irrationals. [14:40] golden number or something. [14:41] sergiol ? [14:41] sergiol yes it is the golden number [14:41] want irrational? Indiana apparently legislated that pi=4 sometime in the XIXth century [14:41] Gerry: Braunschweig is a city. They may make a special kind of sausage there, but the name rings no bell for me. [14:41] There's a countable infinity of describably numbers, but an uncountable infinity of numbers [14:41] 'Fact, most numbers are *transcendental*. [14:41] Gerry: Braunschweig is a city in northern germany, so Braunschweiger would be correct, but i haven't heard it for liverwurst, but that may be just me. [14:41] so there must be an uncountable infinity of undescribable numbers. QED. [14:41] The limit of the ratio of Fibonacci numbers [14:42] Miguel propagates distorted history, I testify as a proud Hoosier. [14:42] Chaitin's omega is interesting, if you are into numbers that will make your head spin [14:43] sergiol the greek architecture tends to have the proportions between height and width defined by the golden number [14:43] I second Cameron's correction [14:43] sergiol: golden ratio is synnymus with golden number, no? [14:43] what? They stipulated pi=3 instead? [14:43] I have heard the Indiana story too, though [14:43] sergiol i will create a new und [14:44] what do folks think about having Tcl_GetDoubleFromObj recognize such strings? [14:44] In English, most often, "golden ratio", or "golden mean"--"golden number" much less often. [14:44] http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_341.html [14:44] http://www.agecon.purdue.edu/crd/Localgov/Second%20Level%20pages/indiana_pi_bill.htm [14:44] "Although the attempt to legislate pi was ultimately unsuccessful, it did come pretty close." [14:45] sergiol Zarutian: in greek architecture works is usual that Height/Width=golden number [14:45] The Indiana Pi Bill, 1897 [14:45] [14:45] This is Indiana House Bill No. 246, 1897, known as the Indiana pi bill. Towards the end of section 2 it says plainly that "The ratio of the diameter and circumference is as five-fourths to four," which means pi is 3.2. The section goes on the criticize (ungenerously, I'd say) past values of pi as "wholly wanting and misleading." [14:45] http://www.agecon.purdue.edu/crd/Localgov/Second%20Level%20pages/Indiana_Pi_Story.htm [14:45] http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_341.html [14:46] If they'd gone for 22/7 they'd have been fairly close [14:46] 377/120 [14:47] Indiana actually considered pi on several occasions (I don't know whether the references I gave explain that). The best thing about the one that went farthest [14:47] sergiol it is so undescribable that it does nt have a name or a value [14:48] is that it was reported out of the Committee on Swamp Lands. You people have no idea how important drainage is (well, maybe our Finnish colleagues ...). [14:48] 45 % expr acos(-1) [14:48] 3.14159292035 [14:48] % 355/113. [14:48] 3.14159265359 [14:48] so scripts like [set rad [expr {$deg*π/180}] would work [14:49] Pick-up line at the Tcl Conference: "So, what's your favorite rational approximant to pi?" [14:49] I like the cyclic nature of 355/113 [14:49] sergiol can i use tabbo owrds now? [14:50] sergiol can i use tabboo words now? [14:50] There is a reason why they are taboo - considered byd style here [14:50] If the taboo were good enough, you couldn't even say "taboo". [14:51] sergiol may be pissa (dick in portuguese) [14:51] depends on whether they are taboo or tabu [14:52] Sergiol--grow up [14:52] sergiol pi and the male genitalia have some similarities in shape [16:52] * dkf notes that l*bt**l is banned though [14:52] suchenwi: how long is the cycle of 355/113 [14:52] sergiol sorry for the impoliteness [14:52] All rationals are cyclic [14:53] (or have finite expansions) [14:53] 000000 is a cycle [14:53] sergiol dkf: or inifinitically periodic [14:54] as is 999999 [14:54] sergiol 4,6(37) is a rational number too [14:54] sergiol , decimal separator [14:55] sergiol (37) the part that repeats infinitically [14:56] All rationals have finite numerator and denominator [14:56] Hard to argue with that, dkf [14:56] ergo, must either have finite expansions or inifinite expansions with a finite cycle after a finite number of digits [16:52] * dgp proposals must be really bad lately [14:56] But I didn't have any of the salmon mousse. [14:57] proof is left as a trivial exercise [14:57] Who's Hal David? [14:57] sergiol dkf: true since even the infinitically periodic can be converted in fractions of integers, but i dn't remember the process to do that [14:57] Lyricist [16:52] * dgp takes "Obscure Python lines" for $100 [14:58] Hal David doesn't have any 's's in his name. [14:59] is there a way how to check if the data for image create photo are the right type for it? [14:59] if {[catch [image create photo...]]} {...} ? [14:59] If the cycle is n digits, the process involves multiplying by 10^n and subtracting [14:59] sergiol i height catches [14:59] ha.. i still forgot on catch.. thanks kbk [14:59] hate? [15:00] h8 [15:00] 37/99 = .3737373737.... [15:00] sergiol yes [16:52] * kbk comes in, sees considerable silliness, perhaps will be cheered up (just read Ed Felten's latest diatribe; ) [15:00] sergiol i hate catches [15:01] sergiol: but not throws? [16:52] * Cameron regards voting-in-America as nearly dead. [15:01] sergiol i like more the if else approach [15:01] It's been outsourced. [16:52] * kbk likes the old Elizabethan catches. "He who would an alehouse keep/ must have three things in store/ A chamber with a featherbed / A fireplace and a hey nonny nonny/ hey nonny nonny hey nonny nonnino" [15:02] sergiol Cameron: George W. Bush will loose and i will be happy [15:02] GW Bush can't run again. [15:02] x = .3737... 100*x = 37.3737... 99*x = 37 [15:02] yet [15:02] Ah, good point. [15:02] Perhaps he won't need to. There may be an emergency preventing it. [16:52] * kbk wouldn't it past the current Administration to discover a terrorist plot to blow up polling places. [15:03] kbk: dont give'm ideas [15:03] Diebold bombs anyway. [15:03] don't think that would matter. [15:03] his term is time-limited no matter what [15:03] Lincoln was widely praised for not suspending elections in the civil war. [15:03] And GW is no Lincoln. [15:04] sergiol: catch is one of the great blessings of Tcl. Compare it with C++ exceptions, or C's segmentation fault/bus error. [15:04] RS writes wisely. [15:05] bus errors typically provoque many casualties [15:05] I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather. Not screaming in terror like his passengers. [15:05] [16:52] * kbk remembers several ladies that he bussed when he shouldn't have. (Fortunately, never married any of *them*) [15:06] sergiol catch encourages bad programming [15:06] The alehouse opens early on Friday. [15:06] Incorrect, Sergio. [15:06] rubbish [15:06] Oh boy. Wrong. Again. [15:07] catch allows good programming [16:52] * miguel wonders if he is about to learn some new meaning of "to bus somebody"? Slang is like pi, infinite and always full of surprises ... [15:07] *Untested* catch is a symptom of naive programming. [15:07] Miguel, Kevin wrote a different word. [15:07] sergiol because i saw colleagues of me using it for bad-working things [15:07] miguel, yes, but does it contain all possible expressions of a salacious nature? [15:08] sergiol in C++ [15:08] sergiol, yeah, well, not doing what people who don't know what they're doing isn't as good as doing what people who do know what they're doing do. [16:52] * Colin inserts another do in there. [15:08] Colin: dont [16:52] * patthoyts re-reads x4 [16:52] * miguel found it ... [15:08] not doing what people who don't know what they're doing do isn't as good as doing what people who do know what they're doing do. [15:09] yeah. needs another do [16:52] * kbk wrote the word, "buss". http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=buss&x=0&y=0 [15:09] Someone's been reading Wirth too much ...he disliked exceptions. [15:09] wirthless. [15:09] patthoyts - FWIW, I use -family {Bitstream Charter} -size -15 [15:09] anyone can misuse a language feature. [15:10] kbk: ok [16:52] * miguel wonders if the thousand monkeys shouldn't be replaced by the binary expansion of pi: wait long enough, and King Lear will appear in unicode [15:10] miguel, that's the question, and the answer is nobody knows. [15:10] That's on Linux; on Windows, I use Georgia. I have Georgia on the Linux box too, but it comes out way too bold. [15:11] minus 15. [15:11] Defaults on windows are fine. [15:11] sergiol is correct for holding the thought that some constructs are hazardous; not all code is of equal merit. However, Tcl's [catch] is certainly a mistaken target for his criticism. [15:11] I know that nobody knows - so you can't prove me wrong. Tra-la-lala [15:11] nobody knows if pi is 'dense', in that its expansion will contain all possible sequences of any given length. [15:11] It's just I've been using ubuntu and tk+xft and the defaults for menus and gui elements are too big with the gtklook setings [15:11] pat - yeah, I've never found a way to make screen metrics work right, and gave up a long, long time ago. [16:52] * Colin thinks that's cool. [15:12] no, all possible sequences. no length. [16:52] * dkf notes that it appears that pi's expansion is maximally random [15:13] otoh, omega would do fine (IIUC). Only nobody would know what the heck you're talking about [15:13] i.e. that it is impossible to guess, given an arbitrary digit, what the next digit is [15:13] Personally, I hope it does contain them all, because then it would contain a couple of episodes of The Office that I missed. [16:52] * dkf probably mis-explained that [16:52] * kbk needs to reboot 'cuz Generous Employer does Patch Tuesday on Fridays lately. Back in a bit. [15:15] sergiol pi sucks [15:15] sergiol nobody has proofed this relation between diameter and perimiter [15:16] I've never met anyone who has an opinion about pi. [15:16] Never hope to. [15:16] sergiol Colin: i am not ruminating [15:16] sergiol, what do you think about e? [15:17] pi is defined to be that ratio [15:17] So it is impossible (or perhaps trivial) to prove: it's an axiom [15:17] sergiol is nt maths the science that wants every thing proofed ? where is that proof? [15:17] it's not even, it's a name. [15:17] It *has* been proved that pi is transcendental [15:17] sergiol, prove you're named sergiol. [15:18] You can look up the proof on wikipedia [15:18] sergiol is what? [15:18] sergiol from what planet has it come? [15:19] The rest of us are from Planet Earth [15:20] We'd say "we come in peace, take us to your leader" except we'd be lying [15:20] It isn't not only a irrational number, it is also not an algebraic number. That non-algebraic numbers are called transcendental. [15:20] I want to say so *many* things. [15:20] Earthmen tend to not come in pieace, and we defnitely don't want to see anyone's leader [15:21] [15:21] Got enough of those already [15:22] I think the conversation where I called Sergiol's mother a whore was more educational and edifying. [15:22] Enough already. [15:23] Colin: got her prices? (tasteless I know) [15:23] sergiol is this a chat for what_? [15:23] Well, FFS, Pat. This is banal beyond ... I don't even know what it's beyond. [15:24] sergiol for swearing my mother? [15:25] belief, certainly. [15:25] sergiol nobody has ever proofed that exist a direct propotionality betwen diameter & perimeter of a circle and that is a reaon to offend my mother? [15:26] Fat Freddie Shepherd? [15:26] been itching to see if 'kick' really works in the jabber room :> [15:26] banal beyond belief, *basically* - not certainly. You get B- in aliteration [15:27] sergiol Don't people know what is civilizated conversation in Australia or in Iceland? [15:27] Facial Feminization Surgery? [16:52] * miguel wonders if sergio might be hinting at non-euclidean geometry ... stops immediately, unreasonably unlikely [15:28] miguel: well we Icelanders have still some viking vulgarity in us [15:29] I'm unwilling to accept any definiton of 'civilisation' in which pi can't be the name of the ratio between a circle's circumference and its diameter. [15:29] I thought civilisation moved past that, approximately 1000 years ago. [15:30] More. [15:30] sergiol or your mothers were fucking so many time with strangers that does'nt had time to speak without swearing the family of other guys? [15:30] [16:52] * dkf interprets pie to be the ratio between crust and apple filling [15:30] [15:31] sergiol i had to be uncivilizated in that sentence, but it is the only adequate response [15:31] sergiol: bye [15:31] heh: define circle, radius and circumference first. Then do precise measurements on the surface of a sphere (intrinsic non-euclidean geometry). Then see that the ratio depends on the radius ... always less than pi, first grows, then recedes to zero, then grows again ... [15:32] sergiol BTW, Colin: Einstein rejected the Newton's Laws [15:32] miguel, I don't think you have to measure. [15:32] sergio has to measure, not me. It should take a while ... [15:32] Ohhhhh! [15:33] I thought a polygon with increasing number of sides can be used to approximate a circle [15:33] it can: from outside, and from inside. Gives you nice bounds [15:33] On a sphere, shouldn't "pi" decrease with radius until it goes through zero??? [15:34] sergiol suchenwi: you are saying i am right [15:34] Inside is easier - just n equilateral triangles with r as two sides [16:52] * kbk prefers definitions of π that don't depend on Euclidean geometry; π = 4 - 4/3 + 4/5 - 4/7 ... is one such. [15:34] miguel, is there any kind of space where the ratio between a geodesic and its radius is rational? [15:34] Colin: The Manhattan metric? [15:34] The smallest circle is closest to being on a plane, gets less so with increasing radius [15:34] sergiol the polygon approximates a circle, is not the same thing [15:35] Oh, I guess ... some kind of space which's square. [15:35] There are metrics where spheres are octahedra [15:35] So you must be wrong, miguel [15:36] sergiol there are some circles if you measure diameter and perimeter, the division of measures will give 2,9.... [15:37] not "through" zero, as distance is defined to be non-negative - so both radius and circumference are non-negative. Now, if you define "radius" as minimal distance, there is a maximal radius (equal to half the length of the equator). [15:37] spheres have a single radius, and are defined to be the set of points which are equidistant from some other nominated point ("the middle") in 3-space. [15:37] So I agree I must be wrong ... I was mis-defining "radius" as "the length of the particular geodesic I chose, irrespective of it being a minimal length path or not" [15:38] a classical euclidean sphere requires that the metric be the square root of the sum of the squares of the perpendicular axial distances [15:38] donal: geometry *on* the sphere, not on its embedding 3-space. [15:39] Oh, spherical geometry [15:39] Spherical Flatland [15:39] "And whlle we're on it, did you know the world's a cube?" "But that would mean that we'd all be sliding toward the centres of the faces!" "So, are you ready to roll?" "Zip.... CFASH!" [15:40] CRASH [15:41] kbk: depends on the metric; if the sphere is a cube, gravity must also act perpendicularly to the faces [15:41] since otherwise there is a "unversal" metric to detect cube-ness [15:41] transfinite banality!!! That's what it's beyond!!! [15:42] let us do some topological non-metric gravitation theory ... [15:42] was beyond. [15:42] sorry, carry on. [15:42] non-metric: in feet and inches? [15:43] to call this all "deep" is to miss just how complicated it is [15:43] is this the tcl chat? [15:43] suchenwi: no in fathoms and yards [15:43] This is the UDP-in-core chat [15:43] UDP-in-TCT chat [15:43] [15:44] sergiol i don't know why this persons like Zarutian and Colin are swearing my mother and people seeing me as the bad guy [16:52] * miguel checks ... indeed, it is friday [15:45] sergiol BTW, sergio666 is NOT me [15:45] been working, but full of silliness [15:45] ok, seems to be back - did anyone else just have network strangeness? [15:45] just you [15:46] (better than the security-and-workflow discussion going on here ) [15:46] The signal/noise ratio is a bit low today [16:52] * kbk wanders off in Hilbert space to get some . Oh, wait, that's Dilbert space. [15:47] [15:47] sergiol what means a underlined nick in tkchat? [15:48] sergiol (right panel) [15:48] Hilbert, hilly billy version [15:49] *hill [15:51] sergiol seems it means a link to a user ith some info [16:52] * kbk wrinkles nose. eeeeewww. Someone filled the machine with Starbucks beans, [15:52] i don't know why this persons like Zarutian and Colin are swearing my mother and people seeing me as the bad guy [15:52] i am sergiol [15:53] No, really? [15:53] serg - perhpas out of some vague sense of "turnabout is fair play;" your own language is pretty foul at times. [15:54] sergiol kbk:? what? [15:54] Otherwise, well, please, everybody, don't feed the trolls. [15:55] sergiol what is trroll , turnabout, an foul? [16:52] * steveo notes that it is *obviously* Friday ... [15:56] kbk: why not? they are nearly extinct [15:56] ?walsh [15:57] sergiol kbk: do you feel well when somebody offens your mother? [15:57] /. "Vista to Create 50,000 Jobs in Europe". Amazing, and all this time they were telling us that computers are here to make our life easier ... [15:57] sergiol offends* [15:57] sergiol miguel:the comments to that in slashdot are very comic [15:58] Sorry, I was searching for kbk's exposition of the derivation of 'welsh' to show to a friend named 'walsh' [15:58] heh, vista support base [15:58] As to why, Sergiol, you don't have the concentration span, and I don't have the patience. [15:59] yes: next we'll have some wheel-barrow maker arguing for the banishment of trucks. It will create 50M new jobs! [15:59] maybe there going to open vista stores in europe [16:00] sergiol Virus , Infections , Spyware, TRojans and Ad-aware? [16:00] Well, every time a new security exploit comes along it costs billions. I guess that money has to pay *someone*, and perhaps it will be equivalent to 50K man-years in Europe alone over Vista's market life. [16:52] * Colin finds that plausible. [16:02] then you can have a local representive of mircosoft to physically beat the living crap out so you can feel better ^^ [16:02] admin: are you there [16:52] * suchenwi cd ~ [16:03] VISTA=Virus , Infections , Spyware, TRojans and Ad-aware? [16:05] sergio666 is not me, i am sergiol [16:07] i discovered what is a troll [16:07] in wkipedia [16:08] Sergiol, I apologise for taking the piss out of you. Your mother is provably not a whore, and it was wrong and mischeivous of me to suggest otherwise. Now please just leave it alone, or open a sub-window and I'll explain to you precisely why I did say it. [16:09] Hi [16:09] Colin: if you did offend her in public, i will not open a sub-window for that [16:10] is there a builtin command that can create a dict from an array? [16:10] explain that in public too, for people to see why you did that [16:10] timjr, you can just treat any [array get] as a dict. [16:10] Sergiol, nobody cares. [16:10] i discovered what is a troll in Wikipedia. [16:11] or you could do a [dict create {expand}[array get]] ... I tend to do that, don't know if it's the best way. [16:11] Also, Sergiol, nobody cares. [16:11] a trollis a person that behaves exactly like you in IRC Colin [16:12] so i will forget your conversations for ever [16:12] Colin: too cool, thanks! [16:12] Enough, or I will taunt you a second time. [16:12] don't they teach "Civism" in Australian schools? [16:13] Sergiol, she is not a whore. [16:13] Colin: don't take me as a dumbass [16:14] remember you called me parasite? [16:14] i am not an idiot [16:14] Sergiol, if you wish to discuss this tripe with me, please take it offline. [16:14] no [16:15] I'm happy enough to talk you into a shallow ditch, if that's what you want, but I see no point in spamming everyone else with it. [16:15] you called me ugly names IN PUBLIC, so you should explain that IN PUBLIC [16:52] * kbk will be happy to /noisy both Colin and sergio2 and let them go at it for a short while. [16:15] If I were to explain it in public, I predict you would be even more offended. [16:15] come on folks, this is NOT a PHP forum [16:16] seems to me even kbk thinks you are a troll [16:52] * dkf notes that the result of [array get] might actually be a dict already [16:16] dkf, is it? [16:16] Not 100% sure and doesn't matter [16:16] ahh... blessed silence [16:16] it's dict-conformant. [16:16] i have benn at PHP chats and persons were more civilizated [16:19] been* [16:20] kbk? [16:25] kbk: i think i will follow your recommendation: don't give any attention to persons like Colin [16:27] She's more of an enthusiastic amateur.