This page has been created to publish a lamentable chat discussion where three users have been offending each other. This is not a good new for Tcl chat networks. Users , and sergiol (after his nick was an after because was banned him from the IRC network) were offending each as quoted below. They call parasite, swaer mothers of each other, etc. BTW it appears a user with a nick sergio666 in this conversation that is not sergiol. [14:16] New TIP: #274 [14:20] 274 makes sense [14:20] heh, suchenwi beat me to the edit [14:20] [14:20] gonna add the actual result. [14:21] Tcl doesn't return "approximate" answers. [14:21] Not in 8.5 [14:21] Now, if it had been 2.0**3**4, that would be different [14:21] Ah - so expr acos(-1) gives precise Pi ? [16:52] * hasnt got an-non-memmory-leaky browser, so would someone be so kind to summerize what tip #274 is about? [14:22] Zarutian: Changing the associativity of the exponentiation operator [14:22] dkf: why? [16:52] * dkf know his browser has memleaks, and doesn't care [14:23] Read the TIP to find out [14:23] discussion on tcl-core recently. [14:24] also - changes tcl to be like perl,ruby,python and others. [14:25] more agol-60 like in other words? [14:26] sergiol may be doing a TIP to add the logical XOR was useful too? [14:27] Tcl already has logical xor [14:28] (!$x) != (!$y) [14:28] sergiol yes but that is not self evident [14:28] sergiol "Don't make me think" - Steve Krug [14:28] [14:28] sergiol anybody has read this book on usabilty? [14:29] If the inputs are Booean (0 or 1), != is sufficient for logival xor. [14:29] logical [14:29] Boolean [14:29] sergiol suchenwi: i got you [14:30] RS: The text is good, the example is only so-so [14:31] Just one I had lying round - didn't want a too complicated, yet evident example. What would you propose? [14:34] Not sure. I'm not very alert today [16:52] * schlenk hates incompetent PHP and SQL coders that code SQL and PHP like the code C, with bitfields and lots of binary operations inside SELECTs..., and i have to understand this crap -> head nearing explosion, even debugging tcllib ASN.1 package is better... [14:35] Sympathies. [14:36] Yes, Richard, I'm willing to talk about "precise pi". I'd *hope* that Tcl gives that--well, that Tcl passes through the underlying library ... [14:36] [string length $PrecisePi] == Inf [14:36] "Precise pi" is an interesting concept [14:37] sergiol does that exist "precise pi"? [14:37] shclenk: big words that [14:37] Its just brilliant 50+ multi table queries just to get some basic document facts for a document management system, the designer of this should be shot (but is now teaching students how to write C and C++ as head of a CS lab). [14:37] Actually, it's a concept that's defined by "how many digits do you want?" [14:37] It does exist, but can't never be printed out in full [14:37] Clearly its: π [14:37] [14:38] sergiol it is the most aberrational concept on maths [14:38] Zarutian: you were interested in ASN.1 a while ago, why? [16:52] * miguel missed the pâté discussion ... "How come your goose liver pâté is so Cheap?" "Well, I trick a bit: it is 50% horse liver" "Mmhhh ... still, should be dearer. How do prepare it?" "Easy: chop one goose liver and one horse liver" [14:38] Just irrational - we have many of those, e.g. sqrt(2) is another [14:38] Ah, yes; precise pi only existed post-Unicode. [14:39] RS: Joking aside, the concept of whether it exists or not was a matter of some philosophical/mathematical discussion a few centuries ago [14:39] The next calendar should have its origin at the adoption of Unicode; we can be in year 8 now. [16:52] * dkf thinks miguel's comment reminds him of chicken-and-horse pie: 50-50, 1 chicken, 1 horse. [14:39] Yes, irrational numbers were seen by some as a kind of witchcraft [14:39] go some more centuries back, and even sqrt(2) was revolutionary ... [14:40] Folks *do* realize that most numbers are irrational, right? [14:40] Here we use liverwurst and braunschweiger interchangeably--is the latter term used in Germany too (possibly with corrected spelling)? [14:40] sergiol who's the guy that proofed the perimeter/diameter=3.14... in a circle? anybody has ever heard of him? [14:40] Most numbers are undescribable [14:40] Another fun irrational is Φ iirc. [14:40] dkf: tell the accountants that [14:40] Well, as there are Inf primes, and sqrt(x) is irrational for prime ix, we have Inf irrationals. [14:40] golden number or something. [14:41] sergiol ? [14:41] sergiol yes it is the golden number [14:41] want irrational? Indiana apparently legislated that pi=4 sometime in the XIXth century [14:41] Gerry: Braunschweig is a city. They may make a special kind of sausage there, but the name rings no bell for me. [14:41] There's a countable infinity of describably numbers, but an uncountable infinity of numbers [14:41] 'Fact, most numbers are *transcendental*. [14:41] Gerry: Braunschweig is a city in northern germany, so Braunschweiger would be correct, but i haven't heard it for liverwurst, but that may be just me. [14:41] so there must be an uncountable infinity of undescribable numbers. QED. [14:41] The limit of the ratio of Fibonacci numbers [14:42] Miguel propagates distorted history, I testify as a proud Hoosier. [14:42] Chaitin's omega is interesting, if you are into numbers that will make your head spin [14:43] sergiol the greek architecture tends to have the proportions between height and width defined by the golden number [14:43] I second Cameron's correction [14:43] sergiol: golden ratio is synnymus with golden number, no? [14:43] what? They stipulated pi=3 instead? [14:43] I have heard the Indiana story too, though [14:43] sergiol i will create a new und [14:44] what do folks think about having Tcl_GetDoubleFromObj recognize such strings? [14:44] In English, most often, "golden ratio", or "golden mean"--"golden number" much less often. [14:44] http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_341.html [14:44] http://www.agecon.purdue.edu/crd/Localgov/Second%20Level%20pages/indiana_pi_bill.htm [14:44] "Although the attempt to legislate pi was ultimately unsuccessful, it did come pretty close." [14:45] sergiol Zarutian: in greek architecture works is usual that Height/Width=golden number [14:45] The Indiana Pi Bill, 1897 [14:45] [14:45] This is Indiana House Bill No. 246, 1897, known as the Indiana pi bill. Towards the end of section 2 it says plainly that "The ratio of the diameter and circumference is as five-fourths to four," which means pi is 3.2. The section goes on the criticize (ungenerously, I'd say) past values of pi as "wholly wanting and misleading." [14:45] http://www.agecon.purdue.edu/crd/Localgov/Second%20Level%20pages/Indiana_Pi_Story.htm [14:45] http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_341.html [14:46] If they'd gone for 22/7 they'd have been fairly close [14:46] 377/120 [14:47] Indiana actually considered pi on several occasions (I don't know whether the references I gave explain that). The best thing about the one that went farthest [14:47] sergiol it is so undescribable that it does nt have a name or a value [14:48] is that it was reported out of the Committee on Swamp Lands. You people have no idea how important drainage is (well, maybe our Finnish colleagues ...). [14:48] 45 % expr acos(-1) [14:48] 3.14159292035 [14:48] % 355/113. [14:48] 3.14159265359 [14:48] so scripts like [set rad [expr {$deg*π/180}] would work [14:49] Pick-up line at the Tcl Conference: "So, what's your favorite rational approximant to pi?" [14:49] I like the cyclic nature of 355/113 [14:49] sergiol can i use tabbo owrds now? [14:50] sergiol can i use tabboo words now? [14:50] There is a reason why they are taboo - considered byd style here [14:50] If the taboo were good enough, you couldn't even say "taboo". [14:51] sergiol may be pissa (dick in portuguese) [14:51] depends on whether they are taboo or tabu [14:52] Sergiol--grow up [14:52] sergiol pi and the male genitalia have some similarities in shape [16:52] * dkf notes that l*bt**l is banned though [14:52] suchenwi: how long is the cycle of 355/113 [14:52] sergiol sorry for the impoliteness [14:52] All rationals are cyclic [14:53] (or have finite expansions) [14:53] 000000 is a cycle [14:53] sergiol dkf: or inifinitically periodic [14:54] as is 999999 [14:54] sergiol 4,6(37) is a rational number too [14:54] sergiol , decimal separator [14:55] sergiol (37) the part that repeats infinitically [14:56] All rationals have finite numerator and denominator [14:56] Hard to argue with that, dkf [14:56] ergo, must either have finite expansions or inifinite expansions with a finite cycle after a finite number of digits [16:52] * dgp proposals must be really bad lately [14:56] But I didn't have any of the salmon mousse. [14:57] proof is left as a trivial exercise [14:57] Who's Hal David? [14:57] sergiol dkf: true since even the infinitically periodic can be converted in fractions of integers, but i dn't remember the process to do that [14:57] Lyricist [16:52] * dgp takes "Obscure Python lines" for $100 [14:58] Hal David doesn't have any 's's in his name. [14:59] is there a way how to check if the data for image create photo are the right type for it? [14:59] if { [catch [image create photo...]]} {...} ? [14:59] If the cycle is n digits, the process involves multiplying by 10^n and subtracting [14:59] sergiol i height catches [14:59] ha.. i still forgot on catch.. thanks kbk [14:59] hate? [15:00] h8 [15:00] 37/99 = .3737373737.... [15:00] sergiol yes [16:52] * kbk comes in, sees considerable silliness, perhaps will be cheered up (just read Ed Felten's latest diatribe; ) [15:00] sergiol i hate catches [15:01] sergiol: but not throws? [16:52] * Cameron regards voting-in-America as nearly dead. [15:01] sergiol i like more the if else approach [15:01] It's been outsourced. [16:52] * kbk likes the old Elizabethan catches. "He who would an alehouse keep/ must have three things in store/ A chamber with a featherbed / A fireplace and a hey nonny nonny/ hey nonny nonny hey nonny nonnino" [15:02] sergiol Cameron: George W. Bush will loose and i will be happy [15:02] GW Bush can't run again. [15:02] x = .3737... 100*x = 37.3737... 99*x = 37 [15:02] yet [15:02] Ah, good point. [15:02] Perhaps he won't need to. There may be an emergency preventing it. [16:52] * kbk wouldn't it past the current Administration to discover a terrorist plot to blow up polling places. [15:03] kbk: dont give'm ideas [15:03] Diebold bombs anyway. [15:03] don't think that would matter. [15:03] his term is time-limited no matter what [15:03] Lincoln was widely praised for not suspending elections in the civil war. [15:03] And GW is no Lincoln. [15:04] sergiol: catch is one of the great blessings of Tcl. Compare it with C++ exceptions, or C's segmentation fault/bus error. [15:04] RS writes wisely. [15:05] bus errors typically provoque many casualties [15:05] I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather. Not screaming in terror like his passengers. [15:05] [16:52] * kbk remembers several ladies that he bussed when he shouldn't have. (Fortunately, never married any of *them*) [15:06] sergiol catch encourages bad programming [15:06] The alehouse opens early on Friday. [15:06] Incorrect, Sergio. [15:06] rubbish [15:06] Oh boy. Wrong. Again. [15:07] catch allows good programming [16:52] * miguel wonders if he is about to learn some new meaning of "to bus somebody"? Slang is like pi, infinite and always full of surprises ... [15:07] *Untested* catch is a symptom of naive programming. [15:07] Miguel, Kevin wrote a different word. [15:07] sergiol because i saw colleagues of me using it for bad-working things [15:07] miguel, yes, but does it contain all possible expressions of a salacious nature? [15:08] sergiol in C++ [15:08] sergiol, yeah, well, not doing what people who don't know what they're doing isn't as good as doing what people who do know what they're doing do. [16:52] * Colin inserts another do in there. [15:08] Colin: dont [16:52] * patthoyts re-reads x4 [16:52] * miguel found it ... [15:08] not doing what people who don't know what they're doing do isn't as good as doing what people who do know what they're doing do. [15:09] yeah. needs another do [16:52] * kbk wrote the word, "buss". http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=buss&x=0&y=0 [15:09] Someone's been reading Wirth too much ...he disliked exceptions. [15:09] wirthless. [15:09] patthoyts - FWIW, I use -family {Bitstream Charter} -size -15 [15:09] anyone can misuse a language feature. [15:10] kbk: ok [16:52] * miguel wonders if the thousand monkeys shouldn't be replaced by the binary expansion of pi: wait long enough, and King Lear will appear in unicode [15:10] miguel, that's the question, and the answer is nobody knows. [15:10] That's on Linux; on Windows, I use Georgia. I have Georgia on the Linux box too, but it comes out way too bold. [15:11] minus 15. [15:11] Defaults on windows are fine. [15:11] sergiol is correct for holding the thought that some constructs are hazardous; not all code is of equal merit. However, Tcl's [catch] is certainly a mistaken target for his criticism. [15:11] I know that nobody knows - so you can't prove me wrong. Tra-la-lala [15:11] nobody knows if pi is 'dense', in that its expansion will contain all possible sequences of any given length. [15:11] It's just I've been using ubuntu and tk+xft and the defaults for menus and gui elements are too big with the gtklook setings [15:11] pat - yeah, I've never found a way to make screen metrics work right, and gave up a long, long time ago. [16:52] * Colin thinks that's cool. [15:12] no, all possible sequences. no length. [16:52] * dkf notes that it appears that pi's expansion is maximally random [15:13] otoh, omega would do fine (IIUC). Only nobody would know what the heck you're talking about [15:13] i.e. that it is impossible to guess, given an arbitrary digit, what the next digit is [15:13] Personally, I hope it does contain them all, because then it would contain a couple of episodes of The Office that I missed. [16:52] * dkf probably mis-explained that [16:52] * kbk needs to reboot 'cuz Generous Employer does Patch Tuesday on Fridays lately. Back in a bit. [15:15] sergiol pi sucks [15:15] sergiol nobody has proofed this relation between diameter and perimiter [15:16] I've never met anyone who has an opinion about pi. [15:16] Never hope to. [15:16] sergiol Colin: i am not ruminating [15:16] sergiol, what do you think about e? [15:17] pi is defined to be that ratio [15:17] So it is impossible (or perhaps trivial) to prove: it's an axiom [15:17] sergiol is nt maths the science that wants every thing proofed ? where is that proof? [15:17] it's not even, it's a name. [15:17] It *has* been proved that pi is transcendental [15:17] sergiol, prove you're named sergiol. [15:18] You can look up the proof on wikipedia [15:18] sergiol is what? [15:18] sergiol from what planet has it come? [15:19] The rest of us are from Planet Earth [15:20] We'd say "we come in peace, take us to your leader" except we'd be lying [15:20] It isn't not only a irrational number, it is also not an algebraic number. That non-algebraic numbers are called transcendental. [15:20] I want to say so *many* things. [15:20] Earthmen tend to not come in pieace, and we defnitely don't want to see anyone's leader [15:21] [15:21] Got enough of those already [15:22] I think the conversation where I called Sergiol's mother a whore was more educational and edifying. [15:22] Enough already. [15:23] Colin: got her prices? (tasteless I know) [15:23] sergiol is this a chat for what_? [15:23] Well, FFS, Pat. This is banal beyond ... I don't even know what it's beyond. [15:24] sergiol for swearing my mother? [15:25] belief, certainly. [15:25] sergiol nobody has ever proofed that exist a direct propotionality betwen diameter & perimeter of a circle and that is a reaon to offend my mother? [15:26] Fat Freddie Shepherd? [15:26] been itching to see if 'kick' really works in the jabber room :> [15:26] banal beyond belief, *basically* - not certainly. You get B- in aliteration [15:27] sergiol Don't people know what is civilizated conversation in Australia or in Iceland? [15:27] Facial Feminization Surgery? [16:52] * miguel wonders if sergio might be hinting at non-euclidean geometry ... stops immediately, unreasonably unlikely [15:28] miguel: well we Icelanders have still some viking vulgarity in us [15:29] I'm unwilling to accept any definiton of 'civilisation' in which pi can't be the name of the ratio between a circle's circumference and its diameter. [15:29] I thought civilisation moved past that, approximately 1000 years ago. [15:30] More. [15:30] sergiol or your mothers were fucking so many time with strangers that does'nt had time to speak without swearing the family of other guys? [15:30] [16:52] * dkf interprets pie to be the ratio between crust and apple filling [15:30] [15:31] sergiol i had to be uncivilizated in that sentence, but it is the only adequate response [15:31] sergiol: bye [15:31] heh: define circle, radius and circumference first. Then do precise measurements on the surface of a sphere (intrinsic non-euclidean geometry). Then see that the ratio depends on the radius ... always less than pi, first grows, then recedes to zero, then grows again ... [15:32] sergiol BTW, Colin: Einstein rejected the Newton's Laws [15:32] miguel, I don't think you have to measure. [15:32] sergio has to measure, not me. It should take a while ... [15:32] Ohhhhh! [15:33] I thought a polygon with increasing number of sides can be used to approximate a circle [15:33] it can: from outside, and from inside. Gives you nice bounds [15:33] On a sphere, shouldn't "pi" decrease with radius until it goes through zero??? [15:34] sergiol suchenwi: you are saying i am right [15:34] Inside is easier - just n equilateral triangles with r as two sides [16:52] * kbk prefers definitions of π that don't depend on Euclidean geometry; π = 4 - 4/3 + 4/5 - 4/7 ... is one such. [15:34] miguel, is there any kind of space where the ratio between a geodesic and its radius is rational? [15:34] Colin: The Manhattan metric? [15:34] The smallest circle is closest to being on a plane, gets less so with increasing radius [15:34] sergiol the polygon approximates a circle, is not the same thing [15:35] Oh, I guess ... some kind of space which's square. [15:35] There are metrics where spheres are octahedra [15:35] So you must be wrong, miguel [15:36] sergiol there are some circles if you measure diameter and perimeter, the division of measures will give 2,9.... [15:37] not "through" zero, as distance is defined to be non-negative - so both radius and circumference are non-negative. Now, if you define "radius" as minimal distance, there is a maximal radius (equal to half the length of the equator). [15:37] spheres have a single radius, and are defined to be the set of points which are equidistant from some other nominated point ("the middle") in 3-space. [15:37] So I agree I must be wrong ... I was mis-defining "radius" as "the length of the particular geodesic I chose, irrespective of it being a minimal length path or not" [15:38] a classical euclidean sphere requires that the metric be the square root of the sum of the squares of the perpendicular axial distances [15:38] donal: geometry *on* the sphere, not on its embedding 3-space. [15:39] Oh, spherical geometry [15:39] Spherical Flatland [15:39] "And whlle we're on it, did you know the world's a cube?" "But that would mean that we'd all be sliding toward the centres of the faces!" "So, are you ready to roll?" "Zip.... CFASH!" [15:40] CRASH [15:41] kbk: depends on the metric; if the sphere is a cube, gravity must also act perpendicularly to the faces [15:41] since otherwise there is a "unversal" metric to detect cube-ness [15:41] transfinite banality!!! That's what it's beyond!!! [15:42] let us do some topological non-metric gravitation theory ... [15:42] was beyond. [15:42] sorry, carry on. [15:42] non-metric: in feet and inches? [15:43] to call this all "deep" is to miss just how complicated it is [15:43] is this the tcl chat? [15:43] suchenwi: no in fathoms and yards [15:43] This is the UDP-in-core chat [15:43] UDP-in-TCT chat [15:43] [15:44] sergiol i don't know why this persons like Zarutian and Colin are swearing my mother and people seeing me as the bad guy [16:52] * miguel checks ... indeed, it is friday [15:45] sergiol BTW, sergio666 is NOT me [15:45] been working, but full of silliness [15:45] ok, seems to be back - did anyone else just have network strangeness? [15:45] just you [15:46] (better than the security-and-workflow discussion going on here ) [15:46] The signal/noise ratio is a bit low today [16:52] * kbk wanders off in Hilbert space to get some . Oh, wait, that's Dilbert space. [15:47] [15:47] sergiol what means a underlined nick in tkchat? [15:48] sergiol (right panel) [15:48] Hilbert, hilly billy version [15:49] *hill [15:51] sergiol seems it means a link to a user ith some info [16:52] * kbk wrinkles nose. eeeeewww. Someone filled the machine with Starbucks beans, [15:52] i don't know why this persons like Zarutian and Colin are swearing my mother and people seeing me as the bad guy [15:52] i am sergiol [15:53] No, really? [15:53] serg - perhpas out of some vague sense of "turnabout is fair play;" your own language is pretty foul at times. [15:54] sergiol kbk:? what? [15:54] Otherwise, well, please, everybody, don't feed the trolls. [15:55] sergiol what is trroll , turnabout, an foul? [16:52] * steveo notes that it is *obviously* Friday ... [15:56] kbk: why not? they are nearly extinct [15:56] ?walsh [15:57] sergiol kbk: do you feel well when somebody offens your mother? [15:57] /. "Vista to Create 50,000 Jobs in Europe". Amazing, and all this time they were telling us that computers are here to make our life easier ... [15:57] sergiol offends* [15:57] sergiol miguel:the comments to that in slashdot are very comic [15:58] Sorry, I was searching for kbk's exposition of the derivation of 'welsh' to show to a friend named 'walsh' [15:58] heh, vista support base [15:58] As to why, Sergiol, you don't have the concentration span, and I don't have the patience. [15:59] yes: next we'll have some wheel-barrow maker arguing for the banishment of trucks. It will create 50M new jobs! [15:59] maybe there going to open vista stores in europe [16:00] sergiol Virus , Infections , Spyware, TRojans and Ad-aware? [16:00] Well, every time a new security exploit comes along it costs billions. I guess that money has to pay *someone*, and perhaps it will be equivalent to 50K man-years in Europe alone over Vista's market life. [16:52] * Colin finds that plausible. [16:02] then you can have a local representive of mircosoft to physically beat the living crap out so you can feel better ^^ [16:02] admin: are you there [16:52] * suchenwi cd ~ [16:03] VISTA=Virus , Infections , Spyware, TRojans and Ad-aware? [16:05] sergio666 is not me, i am sergiol [16:07] i discovered what is a troll [16:07] in wkipedia [16:08] Sergiol, I apologise for taking the piss out of you. Your mother is provably not a whore, and it was wrong and mischeivous of me to suggest otherwise. Now please just leave it alone, or open a sub-window and I'll explain to you precisely why I did say it. [16:09] Hi [16:09] Colin: if you did offend her in public, i will not open a sub-window for that [16:10] is there a builtin command that can create a dict from an array? [16:10] explain that in public too, for people to see why you did that [16:10] timjr, you can just treat any [array get] as a dict. [16:10] Sergiol, nobody cares. [16:10] i discovered what is a troll in Wikipedia. [16:11] or you could do a [dict create {expand} [array get]] ... I tend to do that, don't know if it's the best way. [16:11] Also, Sergiol, nobody cares. [16:11] a trollis a person that behaves exactly like you in IRC Colin [16:12] so i will forget your conversations for ever [16:12] Colin: too cool, thanks! [16:12] Enough, or I will taunt you a second time. [16:12] don't they teach "Civism" in Australian schools? [16:13] Sergiol, she is not a whore. [16:13] Colin: don't take me as a dumbass [16:14] remember you called me parasite? [16:14] i am not an idiot [16:14] Sergiol, if you wish to discuss this tripe with me, please take it offline. [16:14] no [16:15] I'm happy enough to talk you into a shallow ditch, if that's what you want, but I see no point in spamming everyone else with it. [16:15] you called me ugly names IN PUBLIC, so you should explain that IN PUBLIC [16:52] * kbk will be happy to /noisy both Colin and sergio2 and let them go at it for a short while. [16:15] If I were to explain it in public, I predict you would be even more offended. [16:15] come on folks, this is NOT a PHP forum [16:16] seems to me even kbk thinks you are a troll [16:52] * dkf notes that the result of [array get] might actually be a dict already [16:16] dkf, is it? [16:16] Not 100% sure and doesn't matter [16:16] ahh... blessed silence [16:16] it's dict-conformant. [16:16] i have benn at PHP chats and persons were more civilizated [16:19] been* [16:20] kbk? [16:25] kbk: i think i will follow your recommendation: don't give any attention to persons like Colin [16:27] She's more of an enthusiastic amateur.